Hello Poison Ivy

Love the name BTW. You know there is some merit to what you say...

Personally I would agree with counting HH's as F's and P's depending
on whether you found or planted....

I would agree about the A counts -- seems a little redundant to me.

I however sort of disagree with E's and X's

-- I don't think you get a find for showing up at an event where they
just hand you a stamp.

-- The idea of "finding" exchanges makes me think of playing hide and
go seek.

I also count T's for Travelers - I didn't "find" anything I just
opened my mail box and there it was. I *could see counting them as
Hitchhikers* but then you would still need a HH count because they
would not all be *finds* either.

I bet the Lizard counts and Snake counts really annoy you huh

I don't do it, but hey I think it's sort of cute.

I do have a new count starting though -- I've categorized it as
a "FT" - "Fair Trade" -- It is something WarriorWoman and I started -
sort of a letterboxing by proxy sort of thing. She goes boxing on
the Right Coast and I go boxing on the Left Coast, and since neither
of us will probably ever hit the other coast we swap back and forth
on a one for one basis and count them as Fair Trades -- doesn't
effect our "F" count cause that would be cheating, and everyone would
freak, but also lets us see the images we would never get a chance to
see.

Thanks for sharing your opinion,
pandora{HIB} - Iron`Bear's addicted Letterboxer

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "pandora{HIB}"
wrote:

I do have a new count starting though -- I've categorized it as
> a "FT" - "Fair Trade" -- It is something WarriorWoman and I
started -
> sort of a letterboxing by proxy sort of thing. She goes boxing on
> the Right Coast and I go boxing on the Left Coast, and since
neither
> of us will probably ever hit the other coast we swap back and forth
> on a one for one basis and count them as Fair

Said with tongue in cheek........

But, aren't there no rules?

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian, Ryan & Lori
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:09 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Oh the days of just P and F.


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "pandora{HIB}"
wrote:

I do have a new count starting though -- I've categorized it as
> a "FT" - "Fair Trade" -- It is something WarriorWoman and I
started -
> sort of a letterboxing by proxy sort of thing. She goes boxing on
> the Right Coast and I go boxing on the Left Coast, and since
neither
> of us will probably ever hit the other coast we swap back and forth
> on a one for one basis and count them as Fair

From the FAQS at the main site :

Don't publish or re-transmit other peoples' clues or stamp images
without their permission .

Brian
TeamGreenDragon ( who feels rather strongly about this )


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brian --
Hello TeamGreenDragon --

Okay so before the war on this topic starts let me first say that
while I can understand your strong feelings about this, and will
totally defend your right to have those strong feelings, and to
disagree with what I am doing.... I am not "publishing" anything. To
publish something would be to make it public and this is just some
friendly exchanging going on between friends. Secondly WarriorWoman,
who either owns the letterbox or has visited it herself, is visiting
these boxes. I'm sorry but I really do not see anything wrong in
what we are doing and honestly it is really no different than if I
sat down at a table with Iron`Bear and looked through his log book or
him mine, since we don't have all the same boxes. I'm sorry the
whole thing at all offends you, I do understand feeling strongly and
passionately about something, thankfully however sometimes we can
just agree to disagree. I personally think that in the case of re-
transmitting -- I may be way off, but I am taking transmitting to
mean e-mailing- scanning images- posting them on your own website,
and so on and so forth, not some friends innocently swapping and
sharing adventures and images back and forth through US Mail.

It's okay though, I can see the flame war coming now -- let me just
get my nomex suit on first guys okay??

pandora{HIB} - Who is glad she didn't use aerosol hairspray this
morning.

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Steve S." wrote:
> Said with tongue in cheek........
>
> But, aren't there no rules?
>
> Steve


Again from the FAQS :

The old cliche is that the only rule is that there are no rules. That
is true for the art of letterboxing in many senses, although there is
some common sense etiquette:


Brian

We're on the same page here Brian. I agree with you 100%.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian, Ryan & Lori
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:44 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Oh the days of just P and F.


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Steve S." wrote:
> Said with tongue in cheek........
>
> But, aren't there no rules?
>
> Steve


Again from the FAQS :

The old cliche is that the only rule is that there are no rules. That
is true for the art of letterboxing in many senses, although there is
some common sense etiquette:


Brian




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Brian, Ryan & Lori"
wrote:

> From the FAQS at the main site :
>
> Don't publish or re-transmit other peoples' clues or stamp images
> without their permission .
>
> Brian
> TeamGreenDragon ( who feels rather strongly about this )

Oh, brother. I read Pandora's Dilemma in What's New. I don't have
postal letterboxes. But I do have planted boxes. So far, I have
sent Pandora one set of 3x5 index cards with my signature stamp image
and my own letterboxes stamp images on them.

So, technically, I haven't broken any rules.

But I'm about to, I guess.

"Don't publish". I'm not publishing anything anywhere online or in
book form for the masses to see. I'm sending a 3x5 index card to one
individual.

"Re-Transmit". Okay, define this for me. "Transmit" evokes images
of technology, like a .jpg in an email that could be easily forwarded
to every computer in the world. I'm sending a 3x5 index card,
nonreproducible, to one individual by US mail.

If the webmasters saw fit to publish Pandora's plea in the What's New
section of the official website, what do you think the average
letterboxer who reads it will do? Get creative!

Now, you guys know me, you've met me on a number of occasions. Do
you *really* think I'm out here deliberately trying to do something
wrong, on purpose, to say "neener neener" to the spirit of
letterboxing?

I will post to all letterbox placers in the MA and RI area that if
they do *not* want me to letterbox by proxy their letterbox images to
Pandora, I will abide by their individual decisions.

Warrior Woman
(wondering if there is something in the air that is causing everyone
to get real testy lately)

Again, since I am not an old-timer, nor one who started letterboxing in the state that I reside in, please realize that my thoughts on this subject are my thoughts and not 'the way it must be!'

We at Team Rayvenhaus use the following:

P = Planted. Boxes we have personally created, carved and placed.
A = Adopted. Boxes that someone else created that we first found (Counting as a F count) and then took over as the maintainer if it was/is abandoned.
F = Found. Boxes that we have researched the clues on, gone hiking to find and have personally found planted in their original location. Not traded or passed on, nothing else.
X = Exchanged. Personal signature stamps that belong to another letterboxer. Each unique signature stamp counts as a 'X'. And why not? It's a stamp image, no?
E = Events. These are Event stamps. If the stamp is designated as an event stamp by the creator, then they count as an Event. Since I am not independently wealthy and can not get to events from coast to coast, I consider myself lucky to have a chance to 'capture' these otherwise 'uncatchable images for my log book.
HH = Hitchhiker stamp. How they came to us, matters not, if they are designated as a Hitchhiker by the creator, then they count as a Hitchhiker and not in any other category.
T = Travelers. These are fairly simple as well. If they are traveling, moving from place to place and are NOT designated as a Hitchhiker by the creator, they are a Traveler.

SNL and PL are a personal set of numbers only.

We, as Team Rayvenhaus, have some other personal, significant numbers that we keep track of, and to be truthful, the simple fact that people have taken the time to write to me and, for lack of a better term, gripe about these 'other' numbers, telling me how silly it is to do so, and one to even mention that I was very rude for trying to 'force' others to add unneeded numbers to their counts, is a waste of time on their parts. The numbers that I use, that are for MY personal usage, are just that. Mine. Not yours, nor am I advocating that you or anyone else must adopt this way of counting or these 'extra' numbers. Count the way you want to count. It's as simple as that.

Please don't get upset by my words. I'm not trying to dictate anything to anyone. I'm just sharing what I do with the group and have one goal in mind and, not, it's not to be the Kahn of Letterboxing (grin), it's to simply have fun at this hobby.

I look forward to meeting you all on the trail one day.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivy Hedge
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:49 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Oh the days of just P and F.


P5
F97-A2-H2
T6 E3 X17

H is included in F
A is included in F (Found before adopted, - when adopted before
found, you'll have to find it to tend to it - it would then count as
F.)

T, E, X, still remain independent counts -
but I believe should be a subset of F - because you had to come
across or 'find' them somehow.

P, of course, I'll only count if I had a part in making AND hiding AND
clue-ing the box.

Wouldn't it be nice to go back to just P and F?
Then I'd simply be P5-F123

However - until an 'Official' ruling is made, and to keep as
undisputed an F count as possible, I will refrain from that
philosophy and count only F's and H's in my F total. That means three
more to F100.

Poison Ivy


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "pandora{HIB}"
wrote:
thankfully however sometimes we can
just agree to disagree

Sounds fair to me Pandy !

Lori pointed out to me that I'm just an old grump and should let
people have there fun . I'm sorry if I've upset anyone .
I guess I forgot about the difficulties you are having with getting
out . If you want I'll send some of my work to you .

WarriorWomen , Yes we do have great respect for you and your values .
Again , I'm sorry if I came across as a jerk , it's just me being me .

Brian
TeamGreenDragon

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Brian, Ryan & Lori"

> WarriorWoman , Yes we do have great respect for you and your values.

Thank you. And ditto to you, too!

> Again , I'm sorry if I came across as a jerk , it's just me being
me.

You provided me with valuable information. You took the time to
research and give me this information. For this, I thank you. And I
have followed up on this information by doing a public post to all MA
and RI letterbox placers. And I will abide by their individual
decisions.

Warrior Woman
Illegal Letterboxing Desperado
(waits for the giant walking stick in the sky to come down and whump
me upside the head)

Brian --

Thank you for writing such a humble note to the group and to me. I
am always truly impressed by Men that can admit faults and stand up
and say "Hey I'm sorry I was wrong". I admire such traits. It says
a lot more than beating someone over the head with your ways of doing
things and haranguing them for their personal opinions. You have my
gratitude and appreciation.

Since I have not been out on the trails to do this Fair Trade thing,
I will also follow WarriorWoman's example and make a post to all OR
and WA letter boxers offering the same courtesy and I too thank you
for bringing your opinion to our attention.

The wonderful thing about opinions and suggestions is that we can
hear them, and take them into consideration before we do something.
Then choose to act on them or not. I will act on yours as I would
never want to offend or upset those that have been wonderful enough
to plant letterboxes for me to go find. I think sometimes it is all
in presentation, and I thank you for the way you handled this.

pandora{HIB}- Now wearing more comfortable attire so that she can
move comfortably in her sore state.

> Sounds fair to me Pandy !
>
> Lori pointed out to me that I'm just an old grump and should let
> people have there fun . I'm sorry if I've upset anyone .
> I guess I forgot about the difficulties you are having with getting
> out . If you want I'll send some of my work to you .
>
> WarriorWomen , Yes we do have great respect for you and your
values .
> Again , I'm sorry if I came across as a jerk , it's just me being
me .
>
> Brian
> TeamGreenDragon

Before I start this response, let me count the total number of responses that I've made today to ensure that I'm not posting to often or to much.... (Lighten up, that was said tongue in cheek folks!)

Hey Warrior Woman, you've got my vote. Please me share a bit of my philosophy here....

Why do I carve stamps and plant letterboxes?

Several reasons.

The first reason is to return to this hobby in kind. In other words, if I don't plant any, no one else can enjoy more letterboxes. I look at it as a catalyst. Creating more boxes by creating more boxes.

Second is because I want, as most people want, others to appreciate my work, to comment on it. I don't create the to hide them and refuse to let others see them. Does the fact that someone might take an image of a stamp that I made and send it to someone that couldn't get to it bother me? Nope. What of the groups that letterbox together? Do they always work as a group and everyone does their part in finding the stamp, or does, from time to time, one or two get 'carried' along and get a stamp they might not have found themselves?

I certainly have better things to worry about concerning my letterboxes than whether or not someone get an image of the stamp without actually expending the physical energy to locate the place of the boxes hiding.

I for one see it as a chance for more people to see my work and either hate it or appreciate it. More the last than the first I hope. (Grin)

Steve of Rayvenhaus
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
The PNWLb Website - http://www.myndworx.com
(Whose sig can be seen at http://www.myndworx.com/rayvenhaus )

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I count what I see. Since Lizardbutt can't go boxing with me I
count them in his honor. I could add D for deer, but then that's just
silly! :-)
Psychomommy
P32 F148 -F4 X112 PB4 E8 C0 R2 SS1 and the ever lovin' L18

> I bet the Lizard counts and Snake counts really annoy you huh

>
> I don't do it, but hey I think it's sort of cute.